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Freakzilla
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 5691
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject:
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| arnoldo wrote: | | Dude, I didn't contribute to the slaughter of the trees. I bought Sandworms as an ebook. |
Good for you. I guess what I should have said was one book doesn't make as much money.
| Quote: | | Besides I think you place too much emphasis on the robots, |
No, the authors did. There are no robots in Dune. The same story could have been told with Advanced Face Dancers instead.
| Quote: | | ...the real story is how humanity overcame "the enemy." |
You mean the way Norma waved her magic wand at the last minute and banished the bad guy to another plane of existance?
What did humanity learn about dependance from that?
| Quote: | | One picture that stood out in my mind is how the "humans" having no weapons to fight the 'bots threw their bodies against the machines perhaps remembering their lost humanity. |
I'm glad you got something out of it.
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject:
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| Freakzilla wrote: | | arnoldo wrote: | | Dude, I didn't contribute to the slaughter of the trees. I bought Sandworms as an ebook. |
Good for you. I guess what I should have said was one book doesn't make as much money.
| Quote: | | Besides I think you place too much emphasis on the robots, |
No, the authors did. There are no robots in Dune. The same story could have been told with Advanced Face Dancers instead.
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FH was subtle in alluding to robots. If you read Dune there are 'thopter references everywhere, now imagine a 'thopter guided by AI. Also there are the fighting meks that Paul and Alia fight against. IMHO FH was giving us a picture here.
It's also a mis-statement that there are no robots in Dune. Take a look at ChapterHouse and the picture of the HM with their robo-servants, not to mention the references to cyborgs, machine intelligence, man-machine convergence, etc,etc.
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It is forbidden to unleash an artificial consciousness on the universe.
~The Ascenscion Factor.
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Freakzilla
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 5691
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
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| arnoldo wrote: | | Freakzilla wrote: | | arnoldo wrote: | | Dude, I didn't contribute to the slaughter of the trees. I bought Sandworms as an ebook. |
Good for you. I guess what I should have said was one book doesn't make as much money.
| Quote: | | Besides I think you place too much emphasis on the robots, |
No, the authors did. There are no robots in Dune. The same story could have been told with Advanced Face Dancers instead.
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FH was subtle in alluding to robots. If you read Dune there are 'thopter references everywhere, now imagine a 'thopter guided by AI. Also there are the fighting meks that Paul and Alia fight against. IMHO FH was giving us a picture here. |
Automation is not the same as intelligence.
| Quote: | | It's also a mis-statement that there are no robots in Dune. Take a look at ChapterHouse and the picture of the HM with their robo-servants, not to mention the references to cyborgs, machine intelligence, man-machine convergence, etc,etc. |
That's not my point. Dune is about PEOPLE.
The robots on Junction were not intelligent.
Cyborgs are not AI.
"Other Intelligence" is part of the story only once and that is to defend keeping nuclear arsenals. A red herring.
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Tleilax Master B
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2424
Location: Bandalong, Tleilax
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject:
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| arnoldo wrote: |
FH was subtle in alluding to robots. |
Uh huh, which is why you can't come up with any direct evidence to support your theories, right? 
| Quote: | | If you read Dune there are 'thopter references everywhere, now imagine a 'thopter guided by AI. |
OK, I've now imagined that. And your point? Was there some "subtle" allusion to that effect we all missed?
| Quote: | | Also there are the fighting meks that Paul and Alia fight against. IMHO FH was giving us a picture here. |
He sure as heck was. The picture was that machines are machines, and its the humans that make them and control them that are what you need to be concerned about. I don't recall the fighting mech suddenly becoming "conscious" and deciding to run through everyone, slaughtering with reckless abandon.
| Quote: | | It's also a mis-statement that there are no robots in Dune. Take a look at ChapterHouse and the picture of the HM with their robo-servants, not to mention the references to cyborgs, machine intelligence, man-machine convergence, etc,etc. |
There were no "conscious" machines left after the BJ--hows that?
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boardadmin
Site Admin
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 4680
Location: Monterey, California
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject:
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| Tleilax Master B wrote: | | There were no "conscious" machines left after the BJ--hows that? |
So you're admitting there were conscious robots during the BJ? 
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Tleilax Master B
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2424
Location: Bandalong, Tleilax
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rhw007
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:28 am Post subject:
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| Tleilax Master B wrote: | | My issue on that point has always been what you think are the implications of being "conscious". You seem to think that would entail hideous ambitions of armageddon proportions to humanity--I don't think it means any such thing......nor is there any evidence in the originals to suggest that...... |
Then what the frack about the "mantra rule" :
Thou shall make no machine in the likeness of the human mind?
This came from to-the-bone lesson of the Buterlian Jihad.
Bob... 
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Kull_wahad
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 152
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject:
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| rhw007 wrote: | | Tleilax Master B wrote: | | My issue on that point has always been what you think are the implications of being "conscious". You seem to think that would entail hideous ambitions of armageddon proportions to humanity--I don't think it means any such thing......nor is there any evidence in the originals to suggest that...... |
Then what the frack about the "mantra rule" :
Thou shall make no machine in the likeness of the human mind?
This came from to-the-bone lesson of the Buterlian Jihad.
Bob... |
It does not automatically follow from "Thou shall make no machine in the likeness of the human mind.." that "..because if you do, they will instantly become an army of killing machines sent by a psychotic master AI to eradicate humanity!"
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Tleilax Master B
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2424
Location: Bandalong, Tleilax
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
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*off topic*
Why do you suppose there are no robo-servants, presumably after the B. Jiahd, and then they reappear as servants of the HM??
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It is forbidden to unleash an artificial consciousness on the universe.
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Tleilax Master B
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 2424
Location: Bandalong, Tleilax
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Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject:
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| arnoldo wrote: | *off topic*
Why do you suppose there are no robo-servants, presumably after the B. Jiahd, and then they reappear as servants of the HM?? |
Its likely the proscriptions of the B Jihad were becoming very loose in the Scattering...
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rhw007
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
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Freakzilla
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 5691
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:20 am Post subject:
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As I've said before, automation is not the same as intelligence.
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Kull_wahad
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 152
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject:
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I'm still not entirely on board with your "thopters are an analogy to conscious robots" angle.
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Simon
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 2941
Location: Cincinnati,Oh
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:46 am Post subject:
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| Kull_wahad wrote: | | I'm still not entirely on board with your "thopters are an analogy to conscious robots" angle. |
That makes two of us...
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rhw007
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject:
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| Simon wrote: | | Kull_wahad wrote: | | I'm still not entirely on board with your "thopters are an analogy to conscious robots" angle. |
That makes two of us... |
What were the Guild and Ixians doing to get rid of the Navigators?
Creating an INTELLIGENT machine to look through the future and IT and IT ALONE "choose" the 'Correct Path'.
Intelligence no?
BJ lesson forgotten...like ALL of humanaties past lessons even today...sadly forgotten and being repeated continuously decade after decade today...and we're not talking about the DUNE Universe when there were thousands of years between repitisious mistakes. Humans neve seem to learn from some most basic mistakes in thinking...imho
Bob...
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Freakzilla
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 5691
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject:
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| rhw007 wrote: | | Simon wrote: | | Kull_wahad wrote: | | I'm still not entirely on board with your "thopters are an analogy to conscious robots" angle. |
That makes two of us... |
What were the Guild and Ixians doing to get rid of the Navigators?
Creating an INTELLIGENT machine to look through the future and IT and IT ALONE "choose" the 'Correct Path'.
Intelligence no?
BJ lesson forgotten...like ALL of humanaties past lessons even today...sadly forgotten and being repeated continuously decade after decade today...and we're not talking about the DUNE Universe when there were thousands of years between repitisious mistakes. Humans neve seem to learn from some most basic mistakes in thinking...imho
Bob... |
Please provide a FH quote saying the Ixian Navigation Machine was "Intelligent".
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rhw007
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
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Freakzilla
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 5691
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:20 am Post subject:
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No, I'm not reaching. Nowhere does FH say how the INM works nor that it is AI.
I think that would be something worth mentioning.
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Nebiros
Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 383
Location: IV Anbus
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject:
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I read Sandworms of Dune last year and honestly I have to say it was disappointing. Brian and Kevin should have just wrote ONE 700 page novel taking place after Chapterhouse. They put in too many unnecissary detail and the ending was very deux ex machina.
Why did they have to bring back all those long dead characters as gholas? Not in the story but their overall purpose of the writing. Other than Paul, Duncan and Miles Teg most of the gholas were there simply to 'be there' for the finale. The book does not focus on the gholas training and development.
Judging from how short most of the 'chapters' were, I can conclude that Kevin and Brian just wanted to meet a deadline and rushed through the writing process.
The ending was not to my satisfaction to say the least. I actually have many harsh words to describe it. Duncan and Erasmus merging minds, Omnius being taken away by NORMA of all characters to a paralel Universe, Erasmus hitting a switch killing all the face dancers in the universe. It's all very deux ex machina and a very sloppy wrapping up of the story.
Plus so many more bizzare details like Serena in Other Memory talking through Sheeana to the Robot Erasmus.
Is this REALLY what Frank Herbert had in mind? If I ould contact Brian and Kevin, I'd ask them to please explain why they did such a bad wrapping up of the Dune saga.
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Israfil
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 376
Location: No Boundary Proposal
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:57 am Post subject:
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Well, i resisted the urged so far to read the book because of reviews like the one you just did, Nebiros...
So i'll wait for a really good one...
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There's another kind of time, imaginary time, in which the universe has no beginning or end. It would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE.
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Usal420
Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Lakewood, CO
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:59 am Post subject:
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| Aurelius Venport wrote: | I have to say that one of the major problems of the KJA/BH Books is the general haste they were written. And the use of too much plot in relation to the well designed characters of FH. As mentioned elsewhere in the board, if they had focused on dialogue and character play a lot more, it would have been an advantage.
But in my opinion the whole attitude in (american) culture seems to tend towards the whole bubble gum and popcorn cinema style. And I bet 90% of the new readers that were attracted now to the Duniverse by the uhm "overhauled" style of KJA and BH, liked it... And I bet some of them might find the FH pretty boring...
So... uhm I have to say that I like KJA Star Wars expanded Universe Books.
But To think that KJA could cope with Frank Herbert... I think there is just one author who is on the same level as Frank Herbert... As so often mentioned, thats JRR Tolkien.
I try to view the new Books as objectivly as possible. I have to say after Hunters I enjoyed Sandworms. (It was pretty surprising for me that I enjoyed it by the way.) But the conclusion was obvious after the Legends Series. And I agree with many of the critics in most points about style, story flow, and plot construction. But as Stand alone Complex the Legends the Houses and the Sequel Books are okay... and entertaining... And I will definitly spot an eye on Paul of Dune...
Have fun people  |
I agree for the most part.
I also liked KJA's Saga of Seven Suns.
I think a good author also or author's, Gordon R. Dickson, Robert A. Heinlein.
I'd have to say I like the books by BH and KJA. for the most part, keep me entertained guys.
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject:
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| Nebiros wrote: |
Why did they have to bring back all those long dead characters as gholas? Not in the story but their overall purpose of the writing. Other than Paul, Duncan and Miles Teg most of the gholas were there simply to 'be there' for the finale. |
Yueh is portrayed agonizing about his fate before and after his memories are restored. Waff also is shown to be fervent in his hope to restore the Sandworms to fulfill his religious fervor. Scytale is show to be despondent over the failure of his ghola to regain his memories and his "replacement" is also portrayed as such.
| Nebiros wrote: |
The book does not focus on the gholas training and development. |
Once their memories are restored they have all of the "training" they would ever need.
| Nebiros wrote: |
Is this REALLY what Frank Herbert had in mind? |
At the end of CH:D, Scytale had a nullentropy tube of cells of all of the gholas you mentioned so FH probably had in mind their return in Dune 7.
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It is forbidden to unleash an artificial consciousness on the universe.
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Nebiros
Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 383
Location: IV Anbus
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject:
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Frank Herbert did NOT plan to end the Dune saga with an entity of a parallel universe that was once a human taking a computer evermind away to the other Universe.
Although I'm not sure about Duncan being the final Kwisatz Haderach, I'm absolutely convinced of what I wrote above.
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject:
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| Nebiros wrote: | | Frank Herbert did NOT plan to end the Dune saga with an entity of a parallel universe that was once a human taking a computer evermind away to the other Universe.. |
Perhaps, however in CH:D the possibility of a parallel universe(s) was mentioned. . .
| Quote: | "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many....or even an infinite number of expanding and collapsing bubbles."
~Bellonda |
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It is forbidden to unleash an artificial consciousness on the universe.
~The Ascenscion Factor.
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Israfil
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 376
Location: No Boundary Proposal
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject:
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| arnoldo wrote: | | Nebiros wrote: | | Frank Herbert did NOT plan to end the Dune saga with an entity of a parallel universe that was once a human taking a computer evermind away to the other Universe.. |
Perhaps, however in CH:D the possibility of a parallel universe(s) was mentioned. . .
| Quote: | "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many....or even an infinite number of expanding and collapsing bubbles."
~Bellonda |
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Hmmm...so the Newbooks could be set in a parallel universe, but nobody is aware of it?
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There's another kind of time, imaginary time, in which the universe has no beginning or end. It would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE.
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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