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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: Uncertain places in the "Dune"
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Hi, Folks. I think your help is required and will be greatly appreciated. It is all about uncertain moments in the “Dune”. The reason for “Uncertainty” is the necessity of the translation of the “Dune” into Russian. Not everybody enjoy this beautiful book in original language. I am one from Russian community who love this book. Recently we discussed several moments in the “Dune” and fought about ways it has to be translated by the interpreters. You are as English speakers are lucky enough to avoid translation problems and probably never thought about parts of the text which some of us finds “uncertain”.
Part 1:
“Paul took the Sardaukar knife in his left hand, presented it to Stilgar. "You live for the good of the tribe," Paul said. "Could you draw my life's blood with that knife?"
"For the good of the tribe," Stilgar growled.
"Then use that knife," Paul said.
"Are you calling me out?" Stilgar demanded.
"If I do," Paul said, "I shall stand there without weapon and let you slay me."
Stilgar drew in a quick, sharp breath.”
We are interested in this sentence "If I do," Paul said, "I shall stand there without weapon and let you slay me."
What did Paul mean by these words? Some of us have strong opinion that Herbert missed word “not” after “shall” and phrase should sound like "If I do," Paul said, "I shall NOT stand there without weapon and let you slay me."
Please think about this moment and tell us what you think about it.
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Israfil
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 376
Location: No Boundary Proposal
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:51 am Post subject:
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The phrase is ok...
Paul was trying to provoke Stilgar to prove a point. The part that followed what you quoted is very important :
| Quote: | Chani said, "Usul!" then glanced at Gurney, back to Paul.
While Stilgar was still weighing his words, Paul said: "You are Stilgar, a
fighting man. When the Sardaukar began fighting here, you were not in the front
of battle. Your first thought was to protect Chani."
"She's my niece," Stilgar said. "If there'd been any doubt of your Fedaykin
handling those scum . . . "
"Why was your first thought of Chani?" Paul demanded.
"It wasn't!"
"Oh?"
"It was of you," Stilgar admitted.
"Do you think you could lift your hand against me?" Paul asked. Stilgar
began to tremble. "It's the way," he muttered.
"It's the way to kill offworld strangers found in the desert and take their
water as a gift from Shai-hulud," Paul said. "Yet you permitted two such to live
one night, my mother and myself."
As Stilgar remained silent, trembling, staring at him, Paul said: "Ways
change, Stil. You have changed them yourself." |
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Schu
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 1008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:38 am Post subject:
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Yeah, basically Paul's saying that he won't call Stilgar out, that he values him too much to kill him, which leads to them finding a way for Paul to be leader without having to kill Stilgar.
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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject:
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Thank you very much for you respond and sorry for me to thank you so late.
Part II:
"Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible," she said. "But what the O.C. Bible should've said is: 'Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.' Have you studied the Mentat in your service?"
"I've studied with Thufir Hawat."
Could you rephrase this part: Have you studied the Mentat in your service?
She wants to know if he studied a discipline ("Mentat") or actual person who is Mentat?
Thank you.
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Sagan369963
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 9
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject:
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Mentat is a human computer, Hawat is one and DeVries is another.
He is claiming that he studied 'with' Hawat (as in a friend or associate) as opposed to 'studying' Hawat (as you would study a labratory rat).
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject:
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Isn't Paul a mentat?
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~The Ascenscion Factor.
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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject:
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Sagan, but what did She want to know? What was her question about?
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Schu
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 1008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:30 am Post subject:
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Arnoldo - not at the time that quote was said.
niko15 - she was asking whether Paul had studied (looked at, observed etc.) the mentat (Thufir Hawat) in their service (in the employ of the Duke). What bit aren't you getting about the question?
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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject:
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Confusing part is word "studied". Herbert uses this word both in question and Paul's answer. So you are saying that "studied" in the question relates to somebody (studied somebody) but it is different (studied with somebody) in the answer aren't you?
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Schu
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 1008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject:
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Correct. Mohiam is asking whether Paul has observed Hawat, Paul's reply is more about interaction than observation.
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arnoldo
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1905
Location: Aztlan
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject:
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| Schu wrote: | | Arnoldo - not at the time that quote was said. |
Ok, he was just a potential mentat at the time.
| Quote: |
"Your mother wanted me to be the one to tell you, Son. You see, you may have Mentat capabilities."
Paul stared at his father, unable to speak for a moment, then: "A Mentat? Me? But I . . . "
"Hawat agrees, Son. It's true."
"But I thought Mentat training had to start during infancy and the subject couldn't be told because it might inhibit the early . . . " He broke off, all his past circumstances coming to focus in one flashing computation. "I see," he said.
"A day comes," the Duke said, "when the potential Mentat must learn what's being done. It may no longer be done to him. The Mentat has to share in the choice of whether to continue or abandon the training. Some can continue; some are incapable of it. Only the potential Mentat can tell this for sure about himself."
Paul rubbed his chin. All the special training from Hawat and his mother -- the mnemonics, the focusing of awareness, the muscle control and sharpening of sensitivities, the study of languages and nuances of voices -- all of it clicked into a new kind of understanding in his mind.
"You'll be the Duke someday, Son," his father said. "A Mentat Duke would be formidable indeed. Can you decide now . . . or do you need more time?"
There was no hesitation in his answer. "I'll go on with the training." |
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It is forbidden to unleash an artificial consciousness on the universe.
~The Ascenscion Factor.
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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:01 am Post subject:
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this is complicated. part III:
"He said the drowning man who climbs on your shoulders to save himself is understandable – except when you see it happen in the drawing room."
Do you think that the underlined text should be different? What did Herbert want to say here?
Thank you!
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boardadmin
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Location: Monterey, California
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Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject:
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| niko15 wrote: | this is complicated. part III:
"He said the drowning man who climbs on your shoulders to save himself is understandable – except when you see it happen in the drawing room."
Do you think that the underlined text should be different? What did Herbert want to say here?
Thank you! |
No. There's a lot going on in that conversation. Much deeper meanings and quite a bit of angst on Paul's end. He knew he was egging on the banker, showing that they (the Atreides) knew about certain plans made against Paul's family. The drowning man will climb on your shoulders to save himself, but it is a futile gesture because it kills both of them. Was Paul saying he was willing to take out anyone who tried to stand on his family's shoulders? Subtlety. It also showed Paul's growing abilities at diplomacy and forming bonds with others at the dinner table.
The "drawing room" mention is an agressive move because war plans are made in the drawing room. And "...except when you see it at the dinner table" also shows that Paul is aware of his enemies at the table. He knows who's drowning and who's trying to stand on whose shoulders.
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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject:
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Thank you, boardadmin! It was very helpful.
Thanks to all who replied and let me tell you that We a looking forward to receive more replies in case there are people who have different opinion.
Рowever i continue with part IV:
Now I am trying to understand if there were straight words or indirect evidences from Herbert answering a question: Who was Jessica's mother? It is clear that baron was her father but not mother. There is one phrase from Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam:
" You are as dear to me as any of my own daughters, but I cannot let that interfere with duty."
Do you think that Reverend mother could be her biological mother? Thank you.
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boardadmin
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Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject:
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| niko15 wrote: | Thank you, boardadmin! It was very helpful.
Thanks to all who replied and let me tell you that We a looking forward to receive more replies in case there are people who have different opinion.
Рowever i continue with part IV:
Now I am trying to understand if there were straight words or indirect evidences from Herbert answering a question: Who was Jessica's mother? It is clear that baron was her father but not mother. There is one phrase from Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam:
" You are as dear to me as any of my own daughters, but I cannot let that interfere with duty."
Do you think that Reverend mother could be her biological mother? Thank you. |
Frank's allusion to it here is pretty strong, but he never outright says it. Most of BG never know their genetic parents. But Brian and Kevin found some of Frank's notes that indicated, yes, Mohiam was Jessica's mother.
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Onasander
Joined: 27 Sep 2009
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Location: Cincinnatti, Ohio
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:34 am Post subject:
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I thought Frank said Mohiam was not Jessica's mother.
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boardadmin
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject:
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| Onasander wrote: | | I thought Frank said Mohiam was not Jessica's mother. |
Do you have a DUNE quote that supports that?
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niko15
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:17 am Post subject:
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Thanks. Have you ever estimated how much spice Harkonnen had per day?
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boardadmin
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject:
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| niko15 wrote: | | Thanks. Have you ever estimated how much spice Harkonnen had per day? |
You mean how much they harvested? No. But there were mentions of it from Duke Leto when they took over control of Arrakis. How accurate those were, though, are up to interpretation considering bribes, etc.
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niko15
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:10 am Post subject:
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Yes I am talking about "harvesting". Before we continue with it I need your help again. Part V
We then should be able to boost it up to twelve or fifteen per cent where it belongs.
Could you rephrase it for me please? It is not clear what the last part means.
Thank you!
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boardadmin
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject:
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Hawat is doing his mentat calculations here trying to make spice harvesting semi-profitable for them, similar to what the Harkonnens claimed to be making. Their initial profit margins initially were calculated at "a very narrow six or seven per cent" because of repair and replacement costs of spice harvesting equipment. After those repairs were done, Hawat then estimated they'd be in the profit range of "twelve to fifteen per cent." A much more comfortable range which would allow for unknowns.
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niko15
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject:
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Could I say "how it is suppose to be" instead of "where it belongs"? I mean could we say that 12-15% was regular Harkonnen's percentage based on this "where it belongs"?
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boardadmin
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:19 am Post subject:
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| niko15 wrote: | | Could I say "how it is suppose to be" instead of "where it belongs"? I mean could we say that 12-15% was regular Harkonnen's percentage based on this "where it belongs"? |
Yes. 12-15% was what the Atreides estimated the Harkonnens' profit margins were. That's where the Atreides wanted it to be. Or, as you put it, "where it belongs."
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niko15
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niko15
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:20 am Post subject:
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So, what do you think about picture?
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boardadmin
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zeropoint
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:10 am Post subject:
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| boardadmin wrote: | | Onasander wrote: | | I thought Frank said Mohiam was not Jessica's mother. |
Do you have a DUNE quote that supports that? |
Children of Dune, page 97-98. ACE paperback.
Conversation between Leto and Ganima. "They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen..."
[edit: this conversation was between Leto ii and Jessica.]
Frank alluded to nothing, Byron. RM GHM's remark that she loves Jessica as one of "her own daughters" can be equated to telling your best friend you love him like a brother. Jessica was Mohiam's serving mistress, not her daughter, and that is how they became close.
I think this puts very little credibility to the material supposedly written from Frank's notes. If indeed such a note existed, Frank obviously changed his mind with the final product.
Last edited by zeropoint on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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zeropoint
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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Location: Altered State of Druggachusettes
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:22 am Post subject:
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[/quote]
This is possibly one of the best representations of Dr. Yueh I've seen yet. Dean Stockwell is a close third (maybe fourth). But that aged pencilneck from the Scifi mini doesn't even rate.
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boardadmin
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:04 am Post subject:
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| zeropoint wrote: | | boardadmin wrote: | | Onasander wrote: | | I thought Frank said Mohiam was not Jessica's mother. |
Do you have a DUNE quote that supports that? |
Children of Dune, page 97-98. ACE paperback.
Conversation between Leto and Ganima. "They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen..."
Frank alluded to nothing, Byron. RM GHM's remark that she loves Jessica as one of "her own daughters" can be equated to telling your best friend you love him like a brother. Jessica was Mohiam's serving mistress, not her daughter, and that is how they became close.
I think this puts very little credibility to the material supposedly written from Frank's notes. If indeed such a note existed, Frank obviously changed his mind with the final product. |
Then why not say, "I love you dearly" and leave it at that? As you well know, Frank never said anything without extra meanings behind them. I think this was his way of telling us that Jessica was her daughter, but she wasn't officially allowed to reveal that information ...due to the secrecy of the BG breeding program and Jessica's importance within it.
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baureihe41
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject:
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| boardadmin wrote: | | zeropoint wrote: | | boardadmin wrote: | | Onasander wrote: | | I thought Frank said Mohiam was not Jessica's mother. |
Do you have a DUNE quote that supports that? |
Children of Dune, page 97-98. ACE paperback.
Conversation between Leto and Ganima. "They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen..."
Frank alluded to nothing, Byron. RM GHM's remark that she loves Jessica as one of "her own daughters" can be equated to telling your best friend you love him like a brother. Jessica was Mohiam's serving mistress, not her daughter, and that is how they became close.
I think this puts very little credibility to the material supposedly written from Frank's notes. If indeed such a note existed, Frank obviously changed his mind with the final product. |
Then why not say, "I love you dearly" and leave it at that? As you well know, Frank never said anything without extra meanings behind them. I think this was his way of telling us that Jessica was her daughter, but she wasn't officially allowed to reveal that information ...due to the secrecy of the BG breeding program and Jessica's importance within it. |
Interesting way of thinking.
Frank says: "Tanidia Nerus", but means something else.
Frank says Caladan is Paul's birthworld, but means something else.
I think you can legit anything this way if you want to. Why not just accept what is written. Tanidia Nerus was Jessica's mother. Period. There is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER to suggest this statement wasn't correct or means anything else but what is actually written.
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Russian painter